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	<title>Comments on: Help with grammar &#8211; anybody?</title>
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	<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody</link>
	<description>A place to explore the question - what does it mean to be human?</description>
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		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My understanding is that ...

&quot;She insists that he take the dog for a walk.&quot; is one of the few remaining cases in English where the subjunctive is used instead of the indicative.

The subjunctive is an old carry-over from Germanic times.  It used to be very widely used in medieval English, but was slowly replaced by auxiliaries like &quot;would&quot;, &quot;might&quot;, &quot;could&quot; etc.

English also used to be inflected.  Today pretty much no inflections remain, which means that the subjunctive looks the same as the infinitive, the 1/2 person singular, etc.

The subjunctive tense is only used in hypothetical/unrealised sorts of situations, like the one above. The insisting is stated as fact (hence, it doesn&#039;t say &quot;She instist&quot;), but the thing  being insisted isn&#039;t actual, so is instead stated subjuctively:

&quot;She insists (indicative) that he take (subjunctive) the dog for a walk.&quot;

Compare this with a sentence where the subordinate (second) clause doesn&#039;t introduce something unrealised:

&quot;She likes that he takes the dog walking.&quot;

All of this seems to depend on some kind of learning that we&#039;ve all done without ever realising it.  Replace &#039;insists&#039; with &#039;implores&#039;, &#039;demands&#039;, &#039;requests&#039; then it can only rightly be subjunctive.  Replace it with &#039;considers&#039;, &#039;knows&#039;, &#039;sees&#039;, &#039;remembers&#039; then it can only be subjunctive.

It gets even weirder though if you make it &quot;she wishes&quot;   ...

Overall, this is proof that its better not to know at all, and just to follow your instinct, because knowing all this stuff doesn&#039;t make it the least bit more intelligible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;She insists that he take the dog for a walk.&#8221; is one of the few remaining cases in English where the subjunctive is used instead of the indicative.</p>
<p>The subjunctive is an old carry-over from Germanic times.  It used to be very widely used in medieval English, but was slowly replaced by auxiliaries like &#8220;would&#8221;, &#8220;might&#8221;, &#8220;could&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>English also used to be inflected.  Today pretty much no inflections remain, which means that the subjunctive looks the same as the infinitive, the 1/2 person singular, etc.</p>
<p>The subjunctive tense is only used in hypothetical/unrealised sorts of situations, like the one above. The insisting is stated as fact (hence, it doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;She instist&#8221;), but the thing  being insisted isn&#8217;t actual, so is instead stated subjuctively:</p>
<p>&#8220;She insists (indicative) that he take (subjunctive) the dog for a walk.&#8221;</p>
<p>Compare this with a sentence where the subordinate (second) clause doesn&#8217;t introduce something unrealised:</p>
<p>&#8220;She likes that he takes the dog walking.&#8221;</p>
<p>All of this seems to depend on some kind of learning that we&#8217;ve all done without ever realising it.  Replace &#8216;insists&#8217; with &#8216;implores&#8217;, &#8216;demands&#8217;, &#8216;requests&#8217; then it can only rightly be subjunctive.  Replace it with &#8216;considers&#8217;, &#8216;knows&#8217;, &#8216;sees&#8217;, &#8216;remembers&#8217; then it can only be subjunctive.</p>
<p>It gets even weirder though if you make it &#8220;she wishes&#8221;   &#8230;</p>
<p>Overall, this is proof that its better not to know at all, and just to follow your instinct, because knowing all this stuff doesn&#8217;t make it the least bit more intelligible.</p>
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		<title>By: Marieke</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Marieke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-226</guid>
		<description>I think you should get out more...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you should get out more&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mummybot</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>mummybot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-220</guid>
		<description>Very true. I takes the dog for a walk makes no sense, neither does they takes the dog for a walk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true. I takes the dog for a walk makes no sense, neither does they takes the dog for a walk.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-219</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think I have way over complicated this&quot;

Totally agree :-)

I did come to the conclusion that &#039;takes&#039; will not be used in first person singular &amp; plural or in third person plural.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think I have way over complicated this&#8221;</p>
<p>Totally agree :-)</p>
<p>I did come to the conclusion that &#8216;takes&#8217; will not be used in first person singular &amp; plural or in third person plural.</p>
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		<title>By: mummybot</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>mummybot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-214</guid>
		<description>Haha Dances with wolves. Great!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha Dances with wolves. Great!</p>
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		<title>By: Margret</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-213</link>
		<dc:creator>Margret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-213</guid>
		<description>Well thought I was good at grammar but this is too complicated for me!  My rule - if it sounds right then it probably is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well thought I was good at grammar but this is too complicated for me!  My rule &#8211; if it sounds right then it probably is.</p>
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		<title>By: Goatwriter</title>
		<link>http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody/comment-page-1#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Goatwriter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mummybot.com/philosophy/help-with-grammar-anybody#comment-212</guid>
		<description>You could always be a bit Pam Ayres and say &quot;I takes the s&#039;s off me words&quot;

I think it&#039;s about the tense and the subject but you should take the s off if the sentence still holds up without it. 

&quot;She insists that he dances&quot; only reads like she&#039;s convincing someone that this guy &#039;does&#039; dancing, like he goes to a salsa class or jumps around the lounge each night listening to metal, it wouldn&#039;t be a comment on the future or strictly in the past or a multiple because those wouldn&#039;t need an s.

I take the s off words.
Francis takes the s off words. 
- Regularly or as we&#039;re watching (actively).

Francis never used to take the s off his words (implies that you&#039;ve changed your behaviour now, instead of &#039;never took&#039; which wouldn&#039;t be so hopeful.)

So I wonder if Dances with Wolves was about someone who regularly danced with wolves or a few dances that were attended by wolves?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could always be a bit Pam Ayres and say &#8220;I takes the s&#8217;s off me words&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s about the tense and the subject but you should take the s off if the sentence still holds up without it. </p>
<p>&#8220;She insists that he dances&#8221; only reads like she&#8217;s convincing someone that this guy &#8216;does&#8217; dancing, like he goes to a salsa class or jumps around the lounge each night listening to metal, it wouldn&#8217;t be a comment on the future or strictly in the past or a multiple because those wouldn&#8217;t need an s.</p>
<p>I take the s off words.<br />
Francis takes the s off words.<br />
- Regularly or as we&#8217;re watching (actively).</p>
<p>Francis never used to take the s off his words (implies that you&#8217;ve changed your behaviour now, instead of &#8216;never took&#8217; which wouldn&#8217;t be so hopeful.)</p>
<p>So I wonder if Dances with Wolves was about someone who regularly danced with wolves or a few dances that were attended by wolves?</p>
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